Haas zona, reverberacija, decay u kontrolnim sobama

**NLP** · 07-12-2008, 06:23 PM

Oko toga vidim, da se kažu nejasnosti pa da vam malo približim poantu
Pa i ja sam tome kriv.

Najprije bih preporučio, da proučite ove linkove:
- http://www.rumski.com/forum/showthre...ight=haas+zona
- http://www.rumski.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25439

!Ispričavam se jer sam u threadu "Akustika Threadovi po redu - dema0206" napravio strašnu grešku te u postu 32 i 34 naveo pogrešan podatak, da je Haasova zona jednako kao RT60!!!
Lapsus!
Ispričavam se!
Dema me je u postu 33 popravio (i još nekoliko puta me skušao opozoriti i u drugim threadovima)!
Hvala Dema!
Mislim da ne smijem više pisati usred noči i avtomatizacijski...
Ako pomaže kao isprika imao sam težu operaciju pa tablete...

Da se izkupim evo jednog dobrog linka:
http://www.rpginc.com/news/seminars/...2007_iRoom.pdf
Osobito stranice 25 i 27 (pai druge su odlične).
Bit če vam mnogo jasnije jer ima i slikovnog materijala, te brza historija razvoja studijskog akustičnog dizajna. I veoma na kratko i jedrnato!
Htio sam da uploudujem sa svog računala originalan pdf. iz 2006 godine, pa nije išlo, prevelik, ovaj pdf. ima neke crte sa strane namijenjene za zapiske, pa su sličice manje pa morate zumirati.

"All reflections arriving at the observer’s ear within 20 to 40 msec of
the direct sound are integrated, or fused together, with a resulting apparent
increase in level and a pleasant change of character. This is the Haas effect."
"
"Haas found that in the 5 to 35 msec delay
range the sound from the delayed loudspeaker has to be increased
more than 10 dB over the direct before it sounded like an echo. This
is the precedence effect, or Haas effect. In a room, reflected energy
arriving at the ear within 35 msec is integrated with the direct sound
and is perceived as part of the direct sound as opposed to reverberant
sound. These early reflections increase the loudness of the
sound, and as Haas said, result in “...a pleasant modification of the
sound impression in the sense of broadening of the primary sound
source while the echo source is not perceived acoustically.”
The transition zone between the integrating effect for delays less
than 35 msec and the perception of delayed sound as discrete echo is
gradual, and therefore, somewhat indefinite. Some peg the dividing
line at a convenient 1⁄16 second (62 msec), some at 80 msec, and some at
100 msec beyond which there is no question about the discreteness of
the echo."

1.deo

**NLP** · 07-12-2008, 06:24 PM

2. deo

Haasova zona nije baš zabetonirana, oko 5-40ms.
Između 18-35ms je za režirke odlična, odvisno i od kubikaže prostorije te tretmana.

Stranica 27 sa RPGj-evog pdf.-ja:

"Why doesn’t the room sound anechoic with room reflections
30 dB below the direct sound?
�� Possible reasons:
�� The 35 ms integration time of the ear may raise the level and
importance of the diffuse sound field
The diffuse sound field is very dense and occurs without any
time delay, as in a reverberant space which requires time to
develop a reverberant sound field
�� It’s like adding reverberation with a level 30 dB below the
anechoic direct sound, an interesting perception experiment to
perform."

I još sa strane Altona Everesta:

"Small critical listening environments are spaces such as recording
and broadcast studios, residential listening rooms, and music practice
rooms. In concert halls, these spaces are usually designed to be neutral,
adding little of the signature of the room to pre-encoded reproduced
sound. A method to achieve this was described by Davis and
Davis in their live end–dead end control room design concept.3 An
abbreviated list of two of the room criteria follows:

There (should be) an effectively anechoic path between the monitor
loudspeakers and the mixer’s ears for at least 2–5 ms beyond the studio’s
initial time-delay gap. There (should be) a highly diffused sound
field present during the initial onset of the so-called Haas effect.

In 1984, D’Antonio et al.4 extended the ideas of Davis and Davis3 by
introducing practical ways to provide a temporal reflection-free zone
(RFZ) surrounding the listening position using flush-mounted loudspeakers
and a diffuse sound field using reflection phase grating (RPG)
diffusors on the rear wall. The RFZ is created by splaying massive,
speaker boundary surfaces, which may also contain porous absorption
to further minimize the speaker-boundary interference. The RFZ also creates an initial time delay before the onset of the diffuse energy from
the rear wall. The rear wall diffusors create a passive surround sound
and a diffuse sound field for the room. They also widen the “sweet
spot” and provide low-frequency absorption below the diffusion
design frequency. Over the past decade this design has proved to be a
useful approach to designing listening facilities and has been used in
over a thousand facilities.
In small critical listening rooms, the geometry, close proximity, and
surface topology of the boundary surfaces to the listening position may
result in a very sparse temporal and spatial distribution of reflections.
The nonuniform reflection pattern can result in specularity effects,
such as comb filtering and image shifting, as well as nonuniform
sound distribution throughout the room."

Vir: Alton F. Everest; The Masterhandbook of Acoustics, fourth edition: stranica 499 i 500.

A RT60:
"Reverberation time is defined as that time required for the sound in a room to decay 60 dB".
je priporučljiv od otprilike 0.3 - 0.5 sekunde odvisno opet od kubikaže režije, tipa produkcije.

Svejedno je prva prioriteta napraviti sa akustičkim tretmanom dobru frekvencijsku linearnu sliku (u okvirima -/+ 5-15dB max.) i onda paziti na zdrav RT60 kroz čujni spektar u režijama i na tih Haasovih 18-35ms.
Jer ako je soba mala onda nečete moči dosegnuti takve normative, logično.

Eto, da je bilo brže podao sam direktno na engleskom inače bih se napisao...
Oprosti dema još jednom, nisam namjerno i hvala!
Nadam se, da sam popravio krivicu.
Čovjek sam pa pravim greške.

**boggy** · 07-12-2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLP

.......

Svejedno je prva prioriteta napraviti sa akustičkim tretmanom dobru frekvencijsku linearnu sliku (u okvirima -/+ 5-15dB max.) i onda paziti na zdrav RT60 kroz čujni spektar u re?ijama i na tih Haasovih 18-35ms.
Jer ako je soba mala onda nečete moči dosegnuti takve normative, logično.
......

Slazem se! Upravo tako i jedino moze nesto da se uradi u malom prostoru!

Ako se podje STRIKTNO od "normativa" za RT60 kao kriterijuma... a ako je soba MALA i NEOCEKIVANOG oblika, dodje se do "Impossible Mission".

pozdrav

bogi

**DeMa** · 07-12-2008, 09:57 PM

Hallo Nlp

Nije problem radi tebe sam tio vec otvoriti novi Thread. Ali eto hvala ti da si mi skratio poso.

sami znate da se jedna od ovih navedenih karika odnosi na drugu.
Tako da je zalud pricati o tome sta je naj bitnije.
Ali moro sam u datom trenutku karikirati.

Boggy
Opet ja, da se u malj sobi nemoze dostignuti optimum to se nemoze tajiti.

Samo eto iz mog skromnog iskustva mislim , da se moze lakse dobiti rezultat ravne krivulje ako se pazi na reflekcije eto malo i tog Haasa.

I da bi se mogo definirati kolko mi treba Absorbjog materijal treba mi tabela za koificjentama.

Ali opet vrtimo pricu u krug.Dosta za danas

Pozz
Denis

**boggy** · 07-12-2008, 10:09 PM

A zasto ne predlozite/osmislite neki slusni test clanovima, kako da upoznaju i nauce sta je Haasov efekt... mozete do prekosutra da im pricate o milisekundama i decibelima... nije to njihov teren... imate jedinstvenu priliku da testirate siri auditorijum, ostaje samo da ih animirate da se upuste u testiranje... imaju sve sto je neophodno od opreme... vecina... samo treba osmisliti i reci im kako da to urade

Izvinite na mesanju, nisam mogao da se suzdrzim!!!

pozdrav

bogi

**NLP** · 07-12-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boggy

A zasto ne predlozite/osmislite neki slusni test clanovima, kako da upoznaju i nauce sta je Haasov efekt... mozete do prekosutra da im pricate o milisekundama i decibelima... nije to njihov teren... imate jedinstvenu priliku da testirate siri auditorijum, ostaje samo da ih animirate da se upuste u testiranje... imaju sve sto je neophodno od opreme... vecina... samo treba osmisliti i reci im kako da to urade

Izvinite na mesanju, nisam mogao da se suzdrzim!!!

pozdrav

bogi

... To bi bio več poveči projekt.
Pa neka se sami pozabave sa tim

Bit če poučno, sigurno.

Ako idu sa vlastitim prostorom da se upoznaju osobno sa tim, trebaju i prostor koji bi ako da može mijenjati kubikažu

... i "golden ears included"

ili da mogu mijenjati akustičke uslove u prostoriji...

Dobro da teorija govori dosta "slikovito" što je to.

Nisam uopšte ljut na "mješanju", na neki "weird" način simpatično

.

**NLP** · 07-12-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dema0206

Hallo Nlp

Nije problem radi tebe sam tio vec otvoriti novi Thread. Ali eto hvala ti da si mi skratio poso.

sami znate da se jedna od ovih navedenih karika odnosi na drugu.
Tako da je zalud pricati o tome sta je naj bitnije.
Ali moro sam u datom trenutku karikirati.

Boggy
Opet ja, da se u malj sobi nemoze dostignuti optimum to se nemoze tajiti.

Samo eto iz mog skromnog iskustva mislim , da se moze lakse dobiti rezultat ravne krivulje ako se pazi na reflekcije eto malo i tog Haasa.

I da bi se mogo definirati kolko mi treba Absorbjog materijal treba mi tabela za koificjentama.

Ali opet vrtimo pricu u krug.Dosta za danas

Pozz
Denis

Pa lapsus maximus sa moje strane.
Sad je vjerovatno prihvatljiva teorija i za tebe.

Ali ipak kod teme male sobe bih dodao da neke briljantnosti ne ide postiči, kao ?to ti sam i boggy komentirate....
... ako hoče? čim vi?e od male sobe, mora? da stvarno obradi? akustički prostor i maksimalno izbjegava? dominantne prve refleksije i doradi? koliko mo?e? niske u recimo svim kutovima.
Male prostorije če imati manji sweet spot iako je "sve napunjeno optimalnim" akustičkom tretmanom.
Ali ipak; bit če izvrstno bolje!!! kao bez tretmana.

Pa tabela zna bit praktička, ali sa vremenom nauči? na pamet i ne razmi?lja? direktno o tome, nekako ti je "samoumjevno"

... pa se tako mo?e dogodit lapsus kao kod ovog, o čemu je thread

07-12-2008, 06:23 PM	#1
NLP Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Drugdje Posts: 2,426	Haas zona, reverberacija, decay u kontrolnim sobama Oko toga vidim, da se kažu nejasnosti pa da vam malo približim poantu Pa i ja sam tome kriv. Najprije bih preporučio, da proučite ove linkove: - http://www.rumski.com/forum/showthre...ight=haas+zona - http://www.rumski.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25439 !Ispričavam se jer sam u threadu "Akustika Threadovi po redu - dema0206" napravio strašnu grešku te u postu 32 i 34 naveo pogrešan podatak, da je Haasova zona jednako kao RT60!!! Lapsus! Ispričavam se! Dema me je u postu 33 popravio (i još nekoliko puta me skušao opozoriti i u drugim threadovima)! Hvala Dema! Mislim da ne smijem više pisati usred noči i avtomatizacijski... Ako pomaže kao isprika imao sam težu operaciju pa tablete... Da se izkupim evo jednog dobrog linka: http://www.rpginc.com/news/seminars/...2007_iRoom.pdf Osobito stranice 25 i 27 (pai druge su odlične). Bit če vam mnogo jasnije jer ima i slikovnog materijala, te brza historija razvoja studijskog akustičnog dizajna. I veoma na kratko i jedrnato! Htio sam da uploudujem sa svog računala originalan pdf. iz 2006 godine, pa nije išlo, prevelik, ovaj pdf. ima neke crte sa strane namijenjene za zapiske, pa su sličice manje pa morate zumirati. "All reflections arriving at the observer’s ear within 20 to 40 msec of the direct sound are integrated, or fused together, with a resulting apparent increase in level and a pleasant change of character. This is the Haas effect." " "Haas found that in the 5 to 35 msec delay range the sound from the delayed loudspeaker has to be increased more than 10 dB over the direct before it sounded like an echo. This is the precedence effect, or Haas effect. In a room, reflected energy arriving at the ear within 35 msec is integrated with the direct sound and is perceived as part of the direct sound as opposed to reverberant sound. These early reflections increase the loudness of the sound, and as Haas said, result in “...a pleasant modification of the sound impression in the sense of broadening of the primary sound source while the echo source is not perceived acoustically.” The transition zone between the integrating effect for delays less than 35 msec and the perception of delayed sound as discrete echo is gradual, and therefore, somewhat indefinite. Some peg the dividing line at a convenient 1⁄16 second (62 msec), some at 80 msec, and some at 100 msec beyond which there is no question about the discreteness of the echo." 1.deo __________________ We are Dyslexia of Borg. Fusistance is retile. Your ass will be laminated. Nenad Patkovic https://www.facebook.com/NedPat34 https://www.facebook.com/aeracoustics www.aer-acoustics.com http://www.distopiksound.com/ https://mixanalog.com Last edited by NLP; 07-12-2008 at 06:26 PM.

07-12-2008, 06:24 PM	#2
NLP Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Drugdje Posts: 2,426	Re: Haas zona, reverberacija, decay u kontrolnim sobama 2. deo Haasova zona nije baš zabetonirana, oko 5-40ms. Između 18-35ms je za režirke odlična, odvisno i od kubikaže prostorije te tretmana. Stranica 27 sa RPGj-evog pdf.-ja: "Why doesn’t the room sound anechoic with room reflections 30 dB below the direct sound? �� Possible reasons: �� The 35 ms integration time of the ear may raise the level and importance of the diffuse sound field The diffuse sound field is very dense and occurs without any time delay, as in a reverberant space which requires time to develop a reverberant sound field �� It’s like adding reverberation with a level 30 dB below the anechoic direct sound, an interesting perception experiment to perform." I još sa strane Altona Everesta: "Small critical listening environments are spaces such as recording and broadcast studios, residential listening rooms, and music practice rooms. In concert halls, these spaces are usually designed to be neutral, adding little of the signature of the room to pre-encoded reproduced sound. A method to achieve this was described by Davis and Davis in their live end–dead end control room design concept.3 An abbreviated list of two of the room criteria follows: There (should be) an effectively anechoic path between the monitor loudspeakers and the mixer’s ears for at least 2–5 ms beyond the studio’s initial time-delay gap. There (should be) a highly diffused sound field present during the initial onset of the so-called Haas effect. In 1984, D’Antonio et al.4 extended the ideas of Davis and Davis3 by introducing practical ways to provide a temporal reflection-free zone (RFZ) surrounding the listening position using flush-mounted loudspeakers and a diffuse sound field using reflection phase grating (RPG) diffusors on the rear wall. The RFZ is created by splaying massive, speaker boundary surfaces, which may also contain porous absorption to further minimize the speaker-boundary interference. The RFZ also creates an initial time delay before the onset of the diffuse energy from the rear wall. The rear wall diffusors create a passive surround sound and a diffuse sound field for the room. They also widen the “sweet spot” and provide low-frequency absorption below the diffusion design frequency. Over the past decade this design has proved to be a useful approach to designing listening facilities and has been used in over a thousand facilities. In small critical listening rooms, the geometry, close proximity, and surface topology of the boundary surfaces to the listening position may result in a very sparse temporal and spatial distribution of reflections. The nonuniform reflection pattern can result in specularity effects, such as comb filtering and image shifting, as well as nonuniform sound distribution throughout the room." Vir: Alton F. Everest; The Masterhandbook of Acoustics, fourth edition: stranica 499 i 500. A RT60: "Reverberation time is defined as that time required for the sound in a room to decay 60 dB". je priporučljiv od otprilike 0.3 - 0.5 sekunde odvisno opet od kubikaže režije, tipa produkcije. Svejedno je prva prioriteta napraviti sa akustičkim tretmanom dobru frekvencijsku linearnu sliku (u okvirima -/+ 5-15dB max.) i onda paziti na zdrav RT60 kroz čujni spektar u režijama i na tih Haasovih 18-35ms. Jer ako je soba mala onda nečete moči dosegnuti takve normative, logično. Eto, da je bilo brže podao sam direktno na engleskom inače bih se napisao... Oprosti dema još jednom, nisam namjerno i hvala! Nadam se, da sam popravio krivicu. Čovjek sam pa pravim greške. __________________ We are Dyslexia of Borg. Fusistance is retile. Your ass will be laminated. Nenad Patkovic https://www.facebook.com/NedPat34 https://www.facebook.com/aeracoustics www.aer-acoustics.com http://www.distopiksound.com/ https://mixanalog.com Last edited by NLP; 07-12-2008 at 06:31 PM.

07-12-2008, 09:57 PM	#4
DeMa Moderator Join Date: May 2008 Location: Stuttgart Posts: 513	Re: Haas zona, reverberacija, decay u kontrolnim sobama Hallo Nlp Nije problem radi tebe sam tio vec otvoriti novi Thread. Ali eto hvala ti da si mi skratio poso. sami znate da se jedna od ovih navedenih karika odnosi na drugu. Tako da je zalud pricati o tome sta je naj bitnije. Ali moro sam u datom trenutku karikirati. Boggy Opet ja, da se u malj sobi nemoze dostignuti optimum to se nemoze tajiti. Samo eto iz mog skromnog iskustva mislim , da se moze lakse dobiti rezultat ravne krivulje ako se pazi na reflekcije eto malo i tog Haasa. I da bi se mogo definirati kolko mi treba Absorbjog materijal treba mi tabela za koificjentama. Ali opet vrtimo pricu u krug.Dosta za danas Pozz Denis

07-12-2008, 10:09 PM	#5
boggy Moderator Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Beograd Posts: 6,200	Re: Haas zona, reverberacija, decay u kontrolnim sobama A zasto ne predlozite/osmislite neki slusni test clanovima, kako da upoznaju i nauce sta je Haasov efekt... mozete do prekosutra da im pricate o milisekundama i decibelima... nije to njihov teren... imate jedinstvenu priliku da testirate siri auditorijum, ostaje samo da ih animirate da se upuste u testiranje... imaju sve sto je neophodno od opreme... vecina... samo treba osmisliti i reci im kako da to urade Izvinite na mesanju, nisam mogao da se suzdrzim!!! pozdrav bogi __________________ @Facebook @Instagram Email: boggy@myroom-acoustics.com --"We can never see past the choices we don't understand." (Oracle, The Matrix Reloaded)

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)